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Heaven and Earth
One World 2CD Deluxe
Live at Leeds 2CD Deluxe
Solid Air 2CD Deluxe
Grace & Danger 2CD Deluxe
BBC In Concert CD
4CD Boxed Set
Boxed Set
Live at the BBC DVD
BBC In Session CD
Many thanks for creation of this section.
ReplyDelete34 years ago I saw John for my first time ever-and heard his music for the first time ever. I had played guitar (fingerpicking blues/folk) since a kid, but he blew me away, and the sounds he got. I did not pick up my guitar for a long time after hearing him-it had that effect- for about 6 months. Didn't know what he was doing at all, incredible, and I had heard other stuff, lots of blues and also bert Jansch; but this was something vastly different. Took me many years with incidental guitar mag' articles plus lots of experimenting just to get near his stuff. I realised much later in life just how essential it is to use the right tuning.
Now, with modern delay units (eg the line6 dl4) it's possible to attempt all of his 'solo days' stuff, you don't need a genuine echoplex-(which I unsuccesfully tried to get for years).
BUT, it's essential to somehow get access to first his tunings (some known many not) and second 'how he played' (DVDs scrutinised plus several tabs (not many) have been worked out).
How about having an aim somewhere here* (this site) to create: 1. a list of tunings versus songs 2. A repository of tabs
3. Setups and 'gear'.
[*I know there a page on this site addressing some stuff but I was thinking of getting even more specific info']
Just an idea...hope enough interest occurs.
Any ex-guitar techs or Johns band members may well know some vital secrets of his tunings-if willing to communicate info' that would be a great help !
Anyway, here's hoping enough interest exists to make a start...
While I'm at it here...another hing that is of interest is JMs guitar development. Not least the extreme rapidity of his acquiring such mind blasting skills. I read his biography (over last Christmas stuck in an old farm in middle of Oz, 40deg C!!) and what really struck me-apart from not much info on his guitar technique/learning, is the very very short time between him picking up a guitar for the first time and then doing night spots at Les Cousins or Glasgow.
ReplyDeleteI think 1965 he first picked up a guitar (?) and then come 1968 he's doing concerts !!! He didn't read music and he said in an interview he never bought a book (but the biography tends to contradict that latter statement). He picked up his skills by 'looking at fingers of guitarists while performing'. That is one hell of an amazing development, using such a limited tactic. It staggers me-anyone else think this is remarkable or can shed any more light on his playing development?
Jm the best simple as......
ReplyDeleteNick
I agree there are various site on the web with different examples of the tunings John used. Lets collect them together here
ReplyDeleteI'll try start ball rolling. I can post a list of tunihs that I've accumulated later, but try and clear up some now if anyone can help.
ReplyDeleteI'm unsure of tunings for:
Dealer (I think cfccgd-anyone other ideas)
Big Muff (90% sure its cfccgd -anyone confirm?)
Fine Lines ?
Outside In ?
So Much IN LOve With YOu ?
Just Now ?
Ways to Cry ?
Call Me Crazy ?
You Can Discover ?
[I have some ideas on all these but thats all they are-need better information here]
That'll do for now-anyone any ideas on these? The trouble with some of the above -from a crossover period I think between dadgad and his increased use of cfccgd (Inside Out period).
-cheers
ian
There's a guy on youtube who demos a lot of stuff. Don't know how authentic, but it has helped me (a rubbish player!) pick up some simple ones.
ReplyDeleteI used to read guitar magazines back in the 70's and took many notes on John's tunings.
ReplyDeleteSolid Air DAFGCE
Bless the Weather, Make No Mistake DADGAD
Man in the Station, Fine Lines DADGAD
Spencer the Rover DADGAD
Couldn't Love You More CFCCGD
Head & Heart BADGAD
Back Down the River CACGCE
May You Never, Jelly Roll: Standard tuning but drop 6th string to D
Go Down Easy DADGCE
Go Easy CGCGCE
I Don't Wanna Know has been reported as either DADGCD or DAFGCE
Hope this helps -
Brilliant -thanks for these. Some of these I knew, but not all -the fine lines and go easy and go down easy I didnt at all-just have ideas on them.
ReplyDeleteIf everyone sends in what they know then enough overlapping can occur until most are obtained, maybe.
Aye, that I dont wanna know-has been reprted as variants -theres one tab' kicking around (some official general guitar site) as dadgbe (dropped d) which is the tuning I use, but I dont follow that tab.
To Alister-do you mean the prolific 'Litegauge'? I follow his stuff, but he seems to imply he works stuff out according to his guess on a tuning.
Many people have ideas-but this site may have the contacts to get the real deal on the tunings. Wish the old bugger had written all this stuff out for us!! (God Bless him)
[Now, having said that, I wonder if he left any playing notes or 'fake books' anywhere!?!]
great post peeps. i got quite a few jm vids on youtube (too bad we cant post links) i got the river (in wrong tuning...) may u never, windin boy, sweet little mystery and sweet certain surprise and a jelly roll take that i will b updating asap!
ReplyDeletei play solid air in dadgce
head and heart dadgad
jelly roll standard (leave 6th string as e to use for bass)
big muff is cfccgd but i move it up to d to cut out the buzzzzzzz
just now is open c
u can discover agaegc
what setup do u need to recreate echoplex?
.....big muff is cfccgd. the dealer i'm unsure of. don't think its cfccgd, if some1 wants to lend me an echoplex i'll gladly figure it out! thx for making this discussion board.
ReplyDeletei really hope it gets turned into a proper forum, its the only method i found of talkin about the big man!
Happy to add any guitar info at all to the website, just email it through in text format.
ReplyDeleteMany thanks
Hiya, good to see you here johni2bad- seen your stuff on Youtube too...[my stuff there is under 'ianmcgeachy' (btw-I originally created that username 3 days before the tragedy of JMs passing...I would have certainly revoked it after if anyone complained and didn't post for a few month after he passed. I revere the bloke)].
ReplyDeleteI am fairly sure Dealer too is cfccgd. Tho I aint cracked it fully myself. Big muff same tuning and similar to play. Difficult to get right tho...even after analysis of a few dvds and vids..he bends either 3rd or 2nd string at vital points...but cant pin down the right fret to bend on to get the right sound.
Likwise lookin On and Hurt In Your Heart is cfccgd.
On echoplex...I use a line 6 dl4, but dont use 'tape -echo' setting..(that tries to model WEM copicat and echoplex)..instead use the autovolume setting I reckon. For small hours (also cfccgd) I use autovolume on the dl4, and about '1 o clock' setting on delay (like a bad headache tempo) and about 2 oclock repeats..then use about 2:30pm setting for raw:processed mix. These wont make sense without a dl4 in front of you.
Need to experiment tho...also a volume pedal would benefit too.
I'm going to have another go sometime at small hours using a volume pedal with the dl4..that would simulate his 70s setup more or less.
My existing attempt is already on youtube.
**I just recently created a McGeachysGuitar website**
Just setting it up...will place when I can get time some group open documents for people to contribute to.
I got frustrated about JM website opportunities too..so I made that attempt...just creating it so take a look if you want. Links there to videos on Utube too, and JMs tunings and setups/gear/music analysis.
But I too hope we all keep using this as a good forum to talk to each other.
-ian
BTW, not too long ago I communicated with Dick Gaughan and got the FULL low down from him on the development of JMs CFCCGD tuning.
ReplyDeleteI'll post more here or on the website just mentioned (McGeachysGuitar) when I can get round to it..
yea dealer is deffo cfccgd, i watched it today on the live in dublin vid. i'll check out ur vids asap. so glad we got somewhere to chat abot this stuff! gonna hav a go at @my baby girl' soon too.
ReplyDeletei posted 2 more vids on the video site that shall not b named. dude, ur in touch with dick gaughan!!! that is awesome
ReplyDeleteHey guy's let's not get weighed down by the maths of this music. Delay time for Big Muff Small Hours One World Hurt all at 500 qpms with about 10reps along with volume ped gives you enough time to do some fills and stuff.
ReplyDeleteJRB standard tuning down 1 or 2 whole steps you wont get it with a droped E to D If you are playing dealer as on One World CFCCGD if your combing it with Inside out DADGAD or down 1. As for the other stuff it's all in there just listen to the open strings they give it away a bit no matter what pitch. One day without you is standard down 1 hope this helps.
John ain't seen no mention of Rod yet?
By the way for the tech side Roland JC120 amp full fat sound Rat distortion EH Qtron volume ped and a boss dd3 will do all you need.
ReplyDeleteJust listening to Paul Kossoff - Time Away on utube great stuff live for music.
Does anyone know of a good JM tab book? I have been looking for one for years now, but to no avail. Surely I can't be the only person frustrated by this!
ReplyDeleteChris J
Hi Chris there was a book with a few tabs in standard and droped d floating around. I have a coppy of it some where if I can find it would be happy to post a copy to you :)But there is some great info on here and good players showing some of the songs it's mainly in the feel. Peter
ReplyDeleteThanks very much-anonymous (Chris?)..if you can please clarify:
ReplyDelete(i) "qpms"..what units are those? (apologies for my ignorance here-I'm no techie- I'm just starting with doing his delay stuff-and the line6dl4 I use has no 'settings' but can tap it in and listen to the 'repeat number' by ear. I tried counting the small hours (quarter beats in the 4/4 time) and got I thought about 74 beats per minute.
I also had no idea Big Muff and Hurt In Y Heart were same delay settings as small hours. I'm just trying one world as well as Hurt IYHeart..and been trying to decide the delay settings on these...so this is really precious info to me -thanks.
(ii)The 'dealer' tuning/s you mention...I knew he did it in cfccgd-as you say- but you say he ALSO did it in dadgad (or down one tone from dadgad) when moving into 'outside In'?...really!!?- if that is true it may answer the question of me trying to work out stuff from DVDs (eg Live In Dublin-where I thought they may have edited out his retuning). That's a revelation if so. It'd be great if you could confirm he did play dealer sometimes in dadgad (or cgcfgc)-not doubting you at all- just welcome this info! Also the implication is that Outside In was in dadgad (or down one tone from it)? I'm still puzzled about what he used for 'outside in'
PS: How'd you get this info - it's very welcomed by me at least.
-cheers
ian
For Chris J: The JM tab book was by 'wise publications' in 1995. I have it. It has 10 songs: angeline, btweather, couldnt love you more, just now, mynever, one world, over the hill, send me one line, solid air, sweet little mystery.
ReplyDeleteOn the face of it it sounds great- but infact most are tabbed in standard..only mynever is 'correct tuning'(dropped D) which I learned from. Just Now mightbe ok.. but I never done that yet myself -it has dadadf# as the tuning. CLYMore had non standard tuning but NOT the same as Johns -book uses dgdgbe, but JOhn played definitely in cfccgd (or one tone down)- I learned originally that song in the books tuning- but you do NOT get near the ssound unless you do in cfccgd, which I switched to.
It's a shame really, cos it's such a promising book when you first see it or get it in your hands- but then it fails-the arrangements for all but MYNever (which is simplified version)- are not how John played them, and you don't get near the same sound he did I reckon.
Trying to play his classics btweather and solid air in standard tuning!! is -my opinion- completely unsatisfying with the final sound-but that is how the book would have you play them.
Use the internet resources...and work from DVDs is best.
The world still awaits the real and definitive JMartyn tab book!!!!!
No problems I’m no tecki either just read somewhere a while ago he played at 500 crotchets per mille second QPMS If I am using my boss pedal I use the 100 – 500 setting placed at 500 for most of his slower rep stuff Big Muff- Small Hours- One World - Hurt in your heart and so on.
ReplyDeleteFor Dealer - Rather be the Devil electric Big Muff so on up to about 250 and John Wayne - Mad Dog Day - Johnny2bad – Apprentice so on about 200 all with diminishing reps 4 – 10.
I use if I am playing Dealer on electric (strat) cgcfgc if I use cfccgd I would drop the D to a C.
This allows the bends at 15 – 12 – 10 one of those rifts that he liked playing.
A lot of the percussive feel he gets is from using a Qtron with the delay it raises the slap a bit.
I attempted posting an earlier bit but not sure if it went thru or not if it did then I am sorry for the repeat.
Also did you mean inside out like he plays at the end of Call me crazy or You can discover if so that is played in I think cbcdbe or ef – d# the notes if correct is the correct tuning just trying to work it out in my head lol.
Anyways don’t mean to be anonymous but can’t seem to change it over have a look on myspace search martynised there is a little bit of the band on there speak soon.
Peter
Ian read your comment on Big Muff and the difficulty in locating the bends. In cfccgd on the 5th fret “G” its that Bo Diddley vamp after the beat 3rd finger 2nd string 5th fret bend up while 1st finger holding 1st string 3rd fret “harmony “ slide up still with the Bo Diddley slap to the 10th fret but still bend up on the 2nd string 5th fret 1st string 3rd fret after the beat still holding the bar slide up to the 12th fret still on the Bo Diddley feel and at the end of this sequence bend 2nd sting 12th fret while holding 1st sting 10th fret “harmony” and improvise as you go along this is how he does it on live at the bbc but One World is different again if you need to know that let me know.
ReplyDeleteThe bar slide I refer as thumb on the 6th string 1st finger covers the top 4 strings leaving the thumb to null the 5th string thru out if you tap with the non playing fingers lightly you get that slightly out of tune sound you can hear on some versions don’t think this is intentional probably making it look like more was going on or keeping time.
Peter
Thanks very much Peter for all that info...I need to do some experimenting now with your suggestions, and trying those delay settings.
ReplyDeleteLike I say I've been trying to workout the beats per minute for main song along with the delay times used, from the videos/dvds/music itself. I am convinced he didnt use synchronous beats (didnt have his delay repeats falling on the 'music beats') at least thats true for small hours...I counted about 90 beats per minute for the delay repeats but about 76 or 78 bpm for the quarter note beats. That idea corresponds to his statements where he said the 'Edge' (U2) copied his delay approach - since the Edge also uses 'off' delay beats with the music beats.
I'm still 'taking in' that he did dealer in both cfccgd and also dadgad (or one step lower). Also do you reckon he himself dropped the d (in cfccgd) to a c (and so cfccgc)?
Thanks also for the big muff 'string bend' info...like I say I need to experiment with your info here.
Regarding the 'outside in' ...I mean that music he plays for example on the live In dublin album, just after he says 'we're not finished yet' and it comes just after the 'dealer'...its the one with lyrics referring to "silver fish" and "little babies, precious babies, yours and mine" (at times). Though the definitive video version is that to be found on 'In Vision' videotape. Bloody brilliant! (originally televised as 'a little night music' on BBC2 in the early 80s).
The music you I think are referring to ('end of YCDiscover on the OGWT videoclip-now on the utube OR also end of call me crazy on the Sundays Child album...that has no name itself as far as I can tell..he added it at the end of those two pieces as a beautiful echoplex piece of music )- I just covered that myself on utube as it happens- that was in the same tuning as YCDiscover- and so agaegc -he tuned on the OGWT after doing One Day Without You- but I havent worked out from that- I got the tuning from utube versions who all state this agaegc tuning)
I really want a bash at that (Outside in) but am wary of using a 'wrong' tuning...I've wasted alot of time in the past doing that!
Thanks once again for your information
-ian
Ian you are absolutely right so be it all flat Ab – Gb – Eb – Gb – C fot you can discover the lover in me. I covered this in the Cafe Jazz Cardiff earlier this year with the bit I referred to Outside in /in side out.
ReplyDeleteOn the Dublin live he is using CGCGGC and this is what I use when covering Dealer/inside out. As for the delay settings I am sure he played it by ear.
Peter
I am going mad on the Dublin dvd dadgad down one thats got to be cgcfgc where the f**k did I get gg from anyways hoping to get a cover of So much in love with you posted next week with Clive from Mango Crow doing the lead part and it's not in standard.
ReplyDeletePeter- much respect here!! You are a bit of a goldmine must be said, as far as I'm concerned. Do you have website or youtube page where I can see your stuff also- would love to do so. Know we cant advertise or include that here in the messages (which I respect) but in the identifier options just prior to posting its possible to include a weblink page to the name. I'll try to do so at end of this message (for my utube page).
ReplyDeleteCheers again - you've given me much food for thought. You work all this out yourself by the way ? or grab and bribe/pay/threaten one of his guitar techies/band members !!? (I'm ignoring the ultimate source, of course, -bloody hell, I'd have loved to have sat and nattered with and picked Johns brains many moons ago -even if I had to pay for all the drinks!)
-all the best -ian
Ian
ReplyDeleteI've sent the link to Peter
JOhn
Ian,
ReplyDeleteI have sat drunk and sung into the early hours but never talked much about the music and tunings just life in general, I have to add we are very much alike and both of us big kid’s and I mean big. But I wouldn’t go as far to say we were best friends but he was so friendly with everyone.
I like you have worked it out the hard way but I don't see myself as a good guitarist or singer but I love the JM stuff more than anything else. There is some stuff floating about on myspace search martynised for a bit of the band. But we are fun and I have seen and loved the humour in the big man.
I have been on your sites and I must say you do the music proud and play some fine guitar. I liked very much your Bless the Weather very accurate and nice feel.
I believe the big man would have been very touched by the attention he has received.
Allluck Alllove Peter
REsult "Fisher Mans Dream" in the bag right cordsit's the hold on the "D" down one not sure for the fourth beat before the run down so Sweet which we have cracked also,
ReplyDeleteIan as you said CFCCGD in "F" and holding d 3 + 4 before run down. I like you love the Jim Lampi cover far to dificult for me but a great track.
ReplyDeleteI rarely go out of this tuning most of his stuff is in here I see your take on Fine lines and all the talk about what tuning it's cfccgd built around the c shape you take for say "all for the love of you" to the Am to a Daug9th type shape and move around the neck for your fills. Also in this tuning I play. My baby girl - Evil - Man at the station capo 2 - 3 rd Lay it all down - My Creator - Aint no saint - If I ever took another woman - Suzanne - Over the rainbow - Just let me love you - Head & Heart - Pascanale (is that how you spell it) and quite a few more. Peter
B----y hell- we must be psycho'...last two nights I was sat down working out Fishermans Dream myself -actually using the videoclip of Jim Lampi doing that, himself on vocals + stick with a drummer (somewhere in France I think).
ReplyDeleteWhat tuning you use for this? I think cfccgd (or down one tone)-I think this merely 'cos he played this only on electric and he has said he only used cfccgd on electric in the past-(though I reckon he forgot/overlooked a little bit 'cos i think he used dadgad on an electric in the Live in Scotland open air concert he did in 88).
Love Lampis cover version of this btway. Look forwrads to seeing yours anall...
-ian
Just a line Peter to say many thanks again for your info. Plus I looked up the myspace and did a search -are you in the Grace and Danger covers band-based in Wales? Love to see when I visit back to the UK. (Though I am a bit crap on t'internet-not a member of my-sp-ce myself at all).
ReplyDeleteIn between work and all the other stuff I'm gradually building up to attempt/decipher outside in (inside out). So your info is going to become valuable to me.
Your remark on the fine lines tuning is interesting- I had some interesting communiques with 'litegauge' about this-he steered me to open C- and it seemed to work for me, though I use cacgce now which is a tuning I think John used in his early days? Like you I prefer not to go out of cfccgd much...def most his later stuff was played in that. What do you reckon about 'all for the love' and also 'In the evening'. I use cfccgd for both of these so far but I'm wondering if that is what he used himself or if it they were from his dadgad period more.
Ian you are spot on CFCCGD and Fine lines was played in CFCCGD Gary Pollit confimed this and as I said earlier Man at the station I don't want to know about evil My Baby Girl and many many more are in this tuning its a tuning that Nick Drake used or variations of some of his. But for the delay you need some wah enter the Qtron it fattens up the delay no end and gives that vowel sound.I use a few diferent delays EH 16 second unit - Boss dd3 BossME-50 (prefered gig unit) Fulltone tte tape delay (accoustic only) Electric I have Gibson 1958 custom shop and SG standard Martyn d28p martyn om28v assortment of fender strat rat distortion Qtron+ boss volume pedal and Roland JC120 amp and yes it's the G&D band from South Wales anyways keep up the great work and look forward to hearing from you in the future.
ReplyDeletePeter
does anyone know what tuning ''sing a song of summer'' is in from the tumbler album i think its an open tuning but im not sure what do you guys think?
ReplyDeleteRoy
Hello there Roy. I havent attempted this myself. However the prolific guitarist Litegauge -on a site that rhymes with 'boo' and 'lube' !!- has covered this back in february this year. Though he doesnt give the tuning he used- but its obviously an open tuning the way he plays it on the videoclip. You could try and communicate with him. Offhand if betting I'd go for either open C (cgcgce) or the variation John used I believe on walking back down the river- cacgce. Maybe capoed up a tone or so. But I dont know.
ReplyDeleteDoesnt 'sound' like an open sus4 tuning (ie doesnt sound like a tone up or down from dadgad) though. Post back if you find this one out though -I for one wold be interested in adding to my secret notebook of tunings.
-ian
thanks for that Ian much appreciated im gonna attempt it right now, im gonna try and get some links up (if i can find some) for this song its a fav of mine.
ReplyDeleteRoy
Hi Roy
ReplyDeleteSing a Song of Summer is in DADDAD (capo on 2nd fret) as are other songs on the Tumbler (Goin' Down To Memphis, A Day at the Sea, Seven Black Roses and possibly others on that album, as well as Traffic-Light Lady on Stormbringer, London Conversation and Run Honey Run on London Conversation, and Road to Ruin on Road To Ruin.
Hope this helps.
gffWillie
Hi Ian
ReplyDeleteGood to hear from you again. I can normally help with most of John Martyn's acoustic songs, but don't know too much about the electrical set up he used. I should be able to decipher the tunings he uses with them though, although you and others seem to have made a good job of that already. I agree with you that our combined efforts in the JM area should complement each other. If you register and make a comment mentioning your site on my blog that will eventually help increase your site's visibility, and we can link to each other as well.
Thanks also to johnmartyn.com for setting up this discussion board.
All the best
gffWillie
Great to see you here gfWillie. That tuning explains quite a few things. Also, great to see the new blog of yours on JM guitar. Your first site - (JMGuitarFreaks) was the only thing available to nuttas like me, when I eventually finally knuckled down to trying to play JMs stuff properly, after many years 'dabbling'. And I see one or two more updates there recently too, well appreciated by me and a few dedicated others I reckon.
ReplyDeleteIn frustration I started (but work interferes + life n' stuff) a Google JM site ('McGeachysGuitar'), to try and accumulate more stuff on Johns playing. Wonder if you mind me placing links to your sites ...I assign no 'expert' status to myself or 'owt daft like that, but thought that between this forum, your sites, and maybe the site I am developing (hopefully soon I can activate contributions via the Google website mechanism)..maybe we (all interested parties) can suss out alot of Johns guitar work.
A doff of my cap here also, to your obvious knowledge (eg your last posting on Johns use of daddad- I have been putting off seven black roses for awhile so no excuse now I know the tuning!!-there's even a 'sliding capo made now 'the Glider' I am told, just for that type o' thing)...and your playing ability too, top notch there. I learned alot from you already and from your vids you posted. Anyway, hope to communicate more with you if at all possible...
-all the best
Ian
Hi, litegauge here
ReplyDeleteI saw John playing My Baby Girl at the time Sunday's Child came out and I'm pretty certain it's in standard tuning: Bb6 to A repeated then D with a run down C B (maybe Bb briefly) on the 5th and back to A slipping back up to Bb6 (similar shape to the opening chord of Make No Mistake.
For what it's worth, I think it's wrong to get mesmerised by one particular tuning like CFCCGD - particularly his early acoustic stuff. I saw him 3 times at Norwich between '72 and '75, and he changed tuning between just about every song.
I'll write out all of the tunings that I've tried out, for what they're worth and post them soon. John
LG again
ReplyDeleteThese are in the order that I’ve posted videos onto YouTube. I name tunings in terms of their most common name, not in terms of the actual notes so actual tone can be lowered or raised using a capo. John seems to have tuned his bass to C and then tuned the rest to required tuning and then capoed.
John seems to have started out using standard, Open C, Open D and DADDAD a lot, then moves into DADGAD and variants and lots of other tunings before concentrating at some stage on CFCCGD.
London Conversation Open C
Traffic Light Lady Open C own arrangement
Head And Heart Open C own arrangement
Spencer the rover Std own arrangement
Singing In The Rain Dropped D own arr.
Just Now Open C
Run Honey Run Open G
Fairy Tale Lullaby DADDAD
Sing A Song Of Summer DADDAD
Fisherman's Dream DADAAD own arrangement
Go Down Easy DGDGCE own arrangement
Head And Heart Std own arrangement
Don't Wanna Know Std pretty sure
Ways To Cry FBbFFBbC ? at capo
Over The Hill DADGAD
Winging Boy Standard
Back Down The River Open C
Ballad Of An Elder Woman Open G
The River Open C
Woodstock Open G
New Day Open D
Back To Stay Standard
Sandy Grey Standard
Who's Grown Up Now Open G
Walk To The Water DADGAD not sure
John The Baptist DADGAD
Sweet Little Mystery Open D own arrangement
Stormbringer Open D
Back Down The River Open A own arrangement
All For The Love Of You BbBbCGBbD own arr.
Let The Good Things Come Open D
Spencer the rover DADGAD
London Conversation Open C cleaner version
Singing In The Rain Open C
In the Evening DADGAD not sure
Fine Lines Open C
Solid Air DGEbFBbD not sure
Couldn't Love You More CFCCGD
Fly On Home Open D Not posted
Go Easy DADGAD own arr.
Don't agree with CGCGCE
Man At The Station CGDGCD own arrangement
Bless The Weather DGDGAD my arrangement
Fine Lines DADGAD
Baby Girl Standard
Did not run but pretty sure of tunings:
May You Never Dropped D
Seven Black Roses DADDAD
Tree Green Open G from Willie
Certain Surprise CFCCGD from YT
You Can Discover AGAEGC from YT
Cocaine Standard
Golden Girl Standard
Lay It All Down CGCGCC ? not sure
Make No Mistake DADGAD from YT
Patterns In The Rain Standard need help
The Glory Of Love Standard
Fishing Blues Standard
Don’t Think Twice Standard
Road To Ruin DADDAD from Willie
This Time Open G capo 3? in prog.
Head And Heart BADGAD - convince me
As Ian says above, I work by ear rather than from videos so I'm guessing at a lot of these. Plus I consider(ed) myself more of a singer than a guitarist. So after a while, if it's close enough then that's good enough for me.
So these are mainly assumptions. My brother met John in the late 60s, when he was running the Folk Club at Bristol University and chatted to John a bit so I'm pretty sure of Seven Black Roses, Sing A Song Of Summer, Fairy Tale Lullaby and Run Honey Run, though I've seen with with a F in the bass rather than a D, I think. I've seen Woodstock played in both Open D and DADDAD - I prefer Open G.
I haven't posted May You Never because I've played it out, like Streets Of London, hard to put either the head or the heart into it, let alone both.
Seven Black Roses ripped the varnish off a very nice guitar and it's too fast for me now.
The Songbook.
My video of Just Now is adapted from the songbook. May You Never is tabbed well. Most of the others are arrangements of John's songs rather than 'as he plays them'.
John
Thanks John. Now that's what I call a 'post'!!
ReplyDeleteGreat info' here. Between DVDs, you, and the work already done by Willie Milne and Ian Barnett, enough crossover and matchings can start to confirm what tunngs were most probably or actually used or at least what is possible, to play Johns stuff, certainly the acoustic portion.
Agree about the hangup over a particular tuning 'fixation'. Though it's reasonable I think for his 'later work' to start off trying cfccgd- he was quoted as saying he only used cfccgd on electric for example. So electric players have more 'ease' I reckon in that regard trying to get his later sounds. That said, his 'classic' 70s stuff, say BTW and beyond, is still an odd amalgam of cfccgd, dadgad, dropped D, regular, plus 'others', with increased use of cfccgd by the time he was doing Sundays Child stuff. The earier work I reckon..and as you have said-I think- (and he said he used 'anything and everything'), is the harder stuff to nail down tuning wise.
I do think the videos and DVDs are esp useful myself as I work on his stuff, because -such as the rockpalast german concert- he retunes with no editing. Plus he's often solo (JM at BBC some, Rockpalast all), and as you've remarked to me before...separating Dannys bass from Johns quite deep guitar bass tuning can be dificult at best.
As you say, if you're near the sound and you're happy with it, then thats ok. In a way, what he used 'actually' could be seen almost as an end in itself. For me, I would like to pin it down if possible, only because it's easier to then to try and recreate some of those sounds that seem to characterise whatever it is he played.
I myself have wasted in the past-in my view- time- or at least I have been 'inefficient' say- because I messed with the wrong tuning too much, and that I think prevented me getting anything much that satisfied me- in terms of the sound I was aiming at (ie. what he had!)
A further factor- he sometimes played same stuff in different tunings. The echoplex bit (end of YCDiscover on 75 OGWT) he played in dadgad on the Rockpalast concert -amazed me that. Likewise Peter (G&D cover band) pointed out that for The Dealer he used cfccgd (album) but used dadgad when doing outside in with it. Likewise he played solid air segued from shes a lover both in cfccgd. So it would be sometimes wrong to be dogmatic about song versus tuning, certainly for a fraction of his songs.
Love this discussion taking off here. Im putting all the above info into my secret notebook of tunings!
A 'quickie', sortof, maybe. I know basically Johns classic 'setup' from the 70s. But does anyone have a knowledge of the effects he used after he ditched the echoplex -I know he used a Korg unit of some kind in the 80s-but actual model?
ReplyDeleteHe used a Roland SDE3000 delay by 1991, but I am also asking if he ever used a Boss delay pedal too at some point.
While I'm at it..anyone know what make he preferred for a phase shifter ? Oh..and fuzz box- did he always use a Big Muff?
There, that should be enough for a while..!!!
Cheers, Ian
Hi Ian, I seen John at his Leap come back gig after his op he was using a Boss dd3 then and still using one at The Albert Hall 2008 and as far as I know he never used a Big Muff just people assumed I guess his preferd distortion was the Pro Co Rat Distortion Pedal anyways thats what he told me lol
ReplyDeleteanyone got the tunning for sing a song of summer please?
ReplyDeleteThanks very much for this info. I thought I had heard something about his liking for Rat distortion pedals -looking for em in 2nd hand shops or something. Likewise I guessed he used a Boss delay at some point but didnt know for sure. Seeing as that's come from John himself, thats really the best info possible!
ReplyDeleteCan I impose again...he didnt mention his wah wah at all...crybaby early on (70s) maybe ? and later ..?
-cheers for any more help you can give...
Ian
hello Bill, actually this has been asked just above also. Johns posting also contains quite aalot of tunings hes deduced. Willie (gffWillie above) specifically answers this also.
ReplyDeleteWillie says its in DADDAD (capo on 2nd fret)
and I am no one to disagree with that.Theres also a recent video available on a very fanous video sharing channel (hint, hint) of this- a cracking cover by Willie that sounds as near as damn it to John, to me at least.
-Ian
Hi bill hunt. Tuning for sing a song of summer is daddad. You can check my version on yt.
ReplyDeletecheers
gffWillie
Anyone deduced/know the tuning on Rather Be The Devil?
ReplyDeleteI think its in a sus4 (ie steps down from dadgad), (possibly Bb on 6th string so that makes it 2 ssteps down from dadgad)...but welcome to any other ideas on this..its 'next on my burner'.
-cheers for any comments here,
Ian
While I'm visiting here again- anyone want to advise me on parting with some hard earned money? I'm thinking seriously of another decent acoustic dreadnought. Since I'm trying to get as near as I can to Johns sounds, I'm debating between the Guild D55 or the Martin D28. If I find some gold or sapphires here in Oz (or pull off a bankjob) I might even contemplate the JM signature Martin D28...I'd love one o' them. By the way anyone think the signature model would appreciate in value much? Its now about 4,400 pounds or ~10,000$ Oz to me. The Guild D55 I strongly fancy but I dont know why...everyone in guitar shops tells me Martin D28s are the ultimate-they try to make the Matons here after them I am told (I have a Maton)! Actually for some reason Guilds are very expensive here in Oz, & cost more than Martins for 'equivalent' guitar.
ReplyDeleteBut maybe you only live once eh...
-cheers for any considered opinions/info here
I saw John in 1973, he opened for Traffic. Middle act was Free. I was totally blown away! I had never heard an acoustic player use effects before, it was amazing. This may be no big deal to younger players, but trust me, this was very, very original for this time. Most acoustic players were very traditional. I felt bad for Free because they had to follow such an amazing set. Traffic was superb also.
ReplyDeleteYes, it was a big thing back then...and no ones ever really taken that idea up properly since him. You could argue Dan Arborise and Alan Murphy have continued it- each in their particular way. I always wonder how John would have developed his 'one man acoustic guitar and effects' if he hadnt decided to go 'band' -hypothetical of course. A quote of him about 78 indicates he knew no one was doing what he did-at least to the extent he was and in the way he was- and infact that he fully intended to "develop" what he was doing guitar wise.
ReplyDeleteIt's because of this plus the emotive sounds and 'soundscapes' he created (vocally as well as guitar wise) in his music, that JM was well known as '*the* live act to see' back in the mid to late 70s, as well as being billed (about 73, 74) as the 'one man Pink Floyd'.
Is there any way we can get bless the weather tab up on here (even the basic two voicings would be great!)
ReplyDeleteLex
Things have slowed down here a little eh?
ReplyDeleteI am still hunting for ideas on 'Rather Be The Devil' tuning. Anyone?
I dont (now) believe its dadgad (ie a pure sus4 tuning in some pitch).
Very hard to suss this out Ive found.
Contributions welcomed!!
For Lex:
ReplyDeleteBless the weather: as I have analysed this..JM def used a sus4 tuning. So Dsus4 = dadgad.
In that the two main chords would be a Dmin and a Gmin chord, a i-iv vamp. The voicings for the Dminor chords though are [003230] =Dmin7, which pulls off to [003030]=Dmin11, and hammers back on then repeats many times(pulloff-hammer-on) between these two (see video). The Gminor chord is an inversion and uses [003010] = Gmin7/D (no 5th), with the root on the 3rd string and the D still rings out on the bass (6th string)when its picked.
This constant D drone on the bass with the i-iv vamp gives this song its characteristic tonality I reckon, rather a 'subtle' i-iv vamp as it were.
There's also a hammeron on the 5th string 3rd fret at one point when you try to pick this.
The right hand picking needs acquiring, but once you 'get it' (see JMs video), it'll forever stay in your brain!! Not a tab, but a guide as I play this anyway, and I think close to what John was doing at least, in the main.
Sorry, in my last posting, I said a Gmin7/D which indeed *does* contain the 5th (of the G root note), and very much so, as it's in the bass when picked and on the 1st string too!! (Though much of Johns music does have minor chords *without* the 5th, esp' when hes using a minor 11 chord, and esp when he used sus9 (cfccgd) tuning). He said on the documentary (Johnny Too Bad) himself he liked 'broken chords'..and thats a good example-his use of minor chords many times at least.
ReplyDelete